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Kobe Moves Past Michael On List Of 60-Point Games


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#21 Ken #1 Beloved

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Posted February 04, 2009 - 04:25 PM

For one, Karl Malone is the second greatest power forward in NBA history, and his teammate (Stockton) is a top three point guard in NBA history (probably #2, actually). That Jazz duo was incredible.

Charles Barkley was arguably the third or fourth best power forward in NBA history. And, if you didn't watch Kevin Johnson, you missed out on a guy who put up even better numbers than what Steve Nash put up in his two MVP seasons. The Phoenix Suns were an excellent team in 1993, when they lost to Chicago in the Finals.

The Bulls also beat a Lakers team that returned Magic, Worthy and Green -- all were All-Star starters the previous season, when they won 63 games.

Hakeem didn't compete at Jordan's level (and I don't think anyone did), but Olajuwon is the only big man who can say he won a championship without a superstar guard. His second, with Drexler, was when Clyde was ending his career...so technically, that counts as well. Hakeem dominated Shaq, schooled David Robinson (who was incredible as well), and was one of the best and most versatile centers in the last 20 or 30 years.

I think you're underrating the talent from the late 80's up to the mid 90's.

Answer me this, though: what was Jordan's one weakness in, let's say, 1993?

None, but he wasn't a lead guard like Magic and he had arguably the second best player in the league as his sidekick/partner. When MJ decided to pursue his professional baseball career, in 1993-94 the Bulls still compiled a 55-27 record and lost in the second round of the playoffs.

Those Jazz teams were good, not great. The Mailman was a top 3 all time great pf, but I'd put him in Kevin McKale's league, not Tim Duncan (really a center) or KG. Stockton ranks behind Magic, The Big O and Jason Kidd, IMO. He's the Steve Nash of his time. Mark Eaton and Bryon Russell weren't exactly world beaters, they lacked depth, and if it wasn't for Jerry Sloan, they wouldn't have gone to the Finals twice. The Charles Barkley, KJ, Dan Majerle, Danny Ainge, Ced Ceballos Suns were a good team, but also not World Beaters. Chuck was a great player for his time, but in today's game, I'm not so sure he'd be as dominant.

As for the 1990-91 Lakers, Showtime was over. Kareem was gone, Pippen proved that Big Game James was on his last legs, and Magic couldn't do it on his own.

But I love the discussion!

Edited by Ken #1 Beloved, February 04, 2009 - 04:26 PM.


#22 Real Deal

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Posted February 04, 2009 - 04:44 PM

None, but he wasn't a lead guard like Magic and he had arguably the second best player in the league as his sidekick/partner. When MJ decided to pursue his professional baseball career, in 1993-94 the Bulls still compiled a 55-27 record and lost in the second round of the playoffs.

Those Jazz teams were good, not great. The Mailman was a top 3 all time great pf, but I'd put him in Kevin McKale's league, not Tim Duncan (really a center) or KG. Stockton ranks behind Magic, The Big O and Jason Kidd, IMO. He's the Steve Nash of his time. Mark Eaton and Bryon Russell weren't exactly world beaters, they lacked depth, and if it wasn't for Jerry Sloan, they wouldn't have gone to the Finals twice. The Charles Barkley, KJ, Dan Majerle, Danny Ainge, Ced Ceballos Suns were a good team, but also not World Beaters. Chuck was a great player for his time, but in today's game, I'm not so sure he'd be as dominant.

As for the 1990-91 Lakers, Showtime was over. Kareem was gone, Pippen proved that Big Game James was on his last legs, and Magic couldn't do it on his own.

But I love the discussion!

Pippen wasn't that great, man. Vince Carter took the Raptors to the second round by himself. That stuff doesn't mean much to me, because Chicago (as a team) was already great, thanks to Pippen, Phil, their offense, assistant coaches, and two other All-Stars in Armstrong and Grant, who were playing very well that season.

KG isn't in Duncan's league. Garnett is a little better than McHale, but there's no way he's better than Malone. Karl was the better offensive player, by far, and Garnett's defensive abilities didn't make up for that, because Malone was an All-Defensive 1st Team defender in 1996 and 1997 (something around there).

You didn't bring up Kemp and Payton. Kemp isn't a top player in NBA history, but Payton is quite the point guard, probably the best defensive point guard I've ever seen. But, even from Payton's mouth, he admitted that John Stockton was the best point guard he's ever played against, and I guess that would include Kidd.

By the way, Worthy was only 29 years old in that Finals series, and he was averaging a career-high in points that season. Last legs?

If I was a GM, and I was drafting for an all-time roster...the first pick goes to Jordan, because he (unlike Magic) can take over games by scoring 50, by getting his teammates involved, AND by playing exceptional defense. You're right -- Magic couldn't pull it off against the Bulls, and it's because Worthy was all he had as a scorer, and it was going to be up to Johnson to average 30, something he couldn't do.

#23 elpermic

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Posted February 04, 2009 - 04:50 PM

In fact, I've yet to hear a single person give me one weakness in his game.


Gambling.. LMAFO!

When starting a team to build around, you want to build it around a Point Guard or a dominant center, which is why I would take Magic over Jordan.

A real weakness would probably playing Point Guard, I believe Colins or Phil, IDK who, played MJ at the point, and he wouldn't pass the ball! It was until Scottie Pippen came, his point forward, who could pass the ball, knowing who was cold and who was hot on the floor. Magic made his teamates better from his Rookie year, I hadn't seen it from Jordan, he was a loser just like Kobe, losing seasons, losing in the first round until Pippen came.

I'd plow Vanessa Bryant.


#24 Ken #1 Beloved

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Posted February 04, 2009 - 05:00 PM

Pippen wasn't that great, man. Vince Carter took the Raptors to the second round by himself. That stuff doesn't mean much to me, because Chicago (as a team) was already great, thanks to Pippen, Phil, their offense, assistant coaches, and two other All-Stars in Armstrong and Grant, who were playing very well that season.

KG isn't in Duncan's league. Garnett is a little better than McHale, but there's no way he's better than Malone. Karl was the better offensive player, by far, and Garnett's defensive abilities didn't make up for that, because Malone was an All-Defensive 1st Team defender in 1996 and 1997 (something around there).

You didn't bring up Kemp and Payton. Kemp isn't a top player in NBA history, but Payton is quite the point guard, probably the best defensive point guard I've ever seen. But, even from Payton's mouth, he admitted that John Stockton was the best point guard he's ever played against, and I guess that would include Kidd.

By the way, Worthy was only 29 years old in that Finals series, and he was averaging a career-high in points that season. Last legs?

If I was a GM, and I was drafting for an all-time roster...the first pick goes to Jordan, because he (unlike Magic) can take over games by scoring 50, by getting his teammates involved, AND by playing exceptional defense. You're right -- Magic couldn't pull it off against the Bulls, and it's because Worthy was all he had as a scorer, and it was going to be up to Johnson to average 30, something he couldn't do.

You are absolutely right. The 1995-96 Gary Payton/Shawn Kemp/Sam Perkins/Hersey Hawkins/Detlef Schrempf/Nate McMillan Seattle Supersonics were a fun team to watch, but they also underscore my point of weak Finals teams. Who was the first great Euro? Was it Schrempf, Kukoc, Smits, Divacs?

Yes, James Worthy got old fast and the younger, stronger, better Scottie Pippen exposed it. I went to the Finals that year and suffered through Game 5! So are you saying if the Lakers took Kobe off this team, the Lakers could win 55 games? hmmm. Who were the Bulls toughest competitors in the East those years? The Patrick Ewing/John Starks Knicks? Young Shaq and Penny and their Magic? The over the hill Bad Boys? The Cavs? Talk about getting to the playoffs rested! When did they ever have to endure a regular season like Kobe & Company did last year with 8 teams winning 50 or more games in the regular season? Like never. Different times, but we have the influx of Euros now, the youngsters develop earlier, and simply better overall talent in the NBA. Oh, I get your point about MJ, but I'd still start my team with Magic. Or Wilt. Not a shooting guard.

Edited by Ken #1 Beloved, February 04, 2009 - 05:01 PM.


#25 Real Deal

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Posted February 04, 2009 - 05:04 PM

Gambling.. LMAFO!

When starting a team to build around, you want to build it around a Point Guard or a dominant center, which is why I would take Magic over Jordan.

A real weakness would probably playing Point Guard, I believe Colins or Phil, IDK who, played MJ at the point, and he wouldn't pass the ball! It was until Scottie Pippen came, his point forward, who could pass the ball, knowing who was cold and who was hot on the floor. Magic made his teamates better from his Rookie year, I hadn't seen it from Jordan, he was a loser just like Kobe, losing seasons, losing in the first round until Pippen came.

You say that you want to build a team around a point guard or a dominant center, but the greatest team ever assembled (the 72-win Bulls) didn't have an all-star point guard or center.

And if it was Magic who made his teammates better, and Pippen who did it for Chicago, and Pippen led the Bulls to a 55-win season when Jordan retired, explain what Magic's two 54-win seasons meant (in the 80's). Can I safely assume that Pippen was the better player than Magic, who had Kareem, Worthy, Scott and Cooper?

#26 elpermic

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Posted February 04, 2009 - 05:44 PM

You say that you want to build a team around a point guard or a dominant center, but the greatest team ever assembled (the 72-win Bulls) didn't have an all-star point guard or center.

And if it was Magic who made his teammates better, and Pippen who did it for Chicago, and Pippen led the Bulls to a 55-win season when Jordan retired, explain what Magic's two 54-win seasons meant (in the 80's). Can I safely assume that Pippen was the better player than Magic, who had Kareem, Worthy, Scott and Cooper?


You're right the Bulls didn't have an All-Star point guard, nor a dominant center, but Jordan had a top50 great, all star Point Forward, and he had Rodman dominating the boards.

-Now this is the point where I am falsely accused, I never mentioned Pippen making the Bulls better, I had only mentioned he was the man who knew who was cold, and who was hot on the floor.. Kareem changed his philosophy on winning when Magic became his teamate.

-The season means nothing if you don't make noise in the playoffs, the seasons means [expletive]. Pippen did lead the Bulls to 55 wins without Jordan, but he only got to the semifinals, where we was eliminated. Magic did have 2 50 win seasons in 80 and 82, but then again let's return to the 80-81, Magic had only played 37 games that season. I wouldn't really count that season considering he only played 37 games. He again won 54 games, although he lost to Dr.J's 76ers, let's not forget the injuries to Nixon, Worthy and McAdoo.

BTW: Do you by any chance find it interesting that Pippen did lead the Bulls to a 55-win season after replacing Jordan with just a CBA player in Myers?

I'd plow Vanessa Bryant.


#27 last stand 2.0

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Posted February 04, 2009 - 05:48 PM

who cares about 60 point games MJ has 6 championships to kobes 3

kobe gets 3 or 4 more then we can talk about him passing jordan in something
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Posted February 04, 2009 - 08:21 PM

I still think Wilt > Jordan...
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#29 West Coast

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Posted February 04, 2009 - 08:22 PM

I still think Wilt > Jordan...


I think the level of competition was a lot harder for Jordan then Wilt.

#30 Real Deal

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Posted February 04, 2009 - 09:00 PM

BTW: Do you by any chance find it interesting that Pippen did lead the Bulls to a 55-win season after replacing Jordan with just a CBA player in Myers?

No, because the Bulls went from being the second best offense in the NBA, to 14th.

Like I said, it definitely helped when Armstrong and Grant were given larger roles in the offense, and Kukoc and Myers gave them a combined 19 per night.

#31 Ken #1 Beloved

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Posted February 04, 2009 - 09:50 PM

You say that you want to build a team around a point guard or a dominant center, but the greatest team ever assembled (the 72-win Bulls) didn't have an all-star point guard or center.

And if it was Magic who made his teammates better, and Pippen who did it for Chicago, and Pippen led the Bulls to a 55-win season when Jordan retired, explain what Magic's two 54-win seasons meant (in the 80's). Can I safely assume that Pippen was the better player than Magic, who had Kareem, Worthy, Scott and Cooper?

It was the triangle offense with Philip and Tex Winter at their coaching peak. The triangle scoffs at protypical point guards and, while technically it's a "Center in" offense (which made it ideal for Shaq and Kobe), it does not require a dominant low post player. So you can throw out all the rules about who you would want to start your team with when talking about that Bulls team. They could play the triangle in their sleep. Starting a team from scratch, it's Magic or Wilt, "hands down."

Edited by Ken #1 Beloved, February 04, 2009 - 09:52 PM.


#32 Real Deal

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Posted February 04, 2009 - 10:14 PM

It was the triangle offense with Philip and Tex Winter at their coaching peak. The triangle scoffs at protypical point guards and, while technically it's a "Center in" offense (which made it ideal for Shaq and Kobe), it does not require a dominant low post player. So you can throw out all the rules about who you would want to start your team with when talking about that Bulls team. They could play the triangle in their sleep. Starting a team from scratch, it's Magic or Wilt, "hands down."

No way, dude. I coached and actually tried to teach the triangle before, and the basic triangle doesn't have much to do with the center. It deals with all five, and depending on your strategy (Post, Circle, Corner, Reverse), all five of those have to be able to play every spot on the floor, in terms of filling it and still being a threat (not just scoring), including the point, wings (weak and strong), corner and post positions.

But you're telling me that it doesn't require a dominant post...and you can say the same for many offensive strategies.

I figured everyone here at TLN, and on any Lakers site, would drop into this discussion and share their feelings for Magic, or their hate for Jordan, or both.

My thinking is this: Magic and Pippen would've never won a title together. It's really not a thought, but a fact.

Well, you want to build around Magic? Okay, give him the Showtime Lakers. Otherwise, you better give him a Larry Bird, or a legend, because he cannot shoulder the load Jordan could, offensively and defensively.

#33 xplayforrealx

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Posted February 04, 2009 - 10:21 PM

Man I was born a Laker fan and I would still choose MJ over Magic on rebuilding a team lol. But thats a close discussion though. Michael just had so much passion.Magic had a great IQ.
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#34 Ken #1 Beloved

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Posted February 05, 2009 - 08:22 AM

No way, dude. I coached and actually tried to teach the triangle before, and the basic triangle doesn't have much to do with the center. It deals with all five, and depending on your strategy (Post, Circle, Corner, Reverse), all five of those have to be able to play every spot on the floor, in terms of filling it and still being a threat (not just scoring), including the point, wings (weak and strong), corner and post positions.

But you're telling me that it doesn't require a dominant post...and you can say the same for many offensive strategies.

I figured everyone here at TLN, and on any Lakers site, would drop into this discussion and share their feelings for Magic, or their hate for Jordan, or both.

My thinking is this: Magic and Pippen would've never won a title together. It's really not a thought, but a fact.

Well, you want to build around Magic? Okay, give him the Showtime Lakers. Otherwise, you better give him a Larry Bird, or a legend, because he cannot shoulder the load Jordan could, offensively and defensively.

Magic Johnson won 3 championships in 4 years at 3 different levels with different players - State, NCAA, NBA. He went to the NBA Finals 9 times in 12 years and would have won more except that a team who wears green from Boston and had players like Bird, McKale, Parrish, Dennis Johnson, Danny Ainge, etc kinda sorta stood in their way, not to mention one of the greatest teams in the history of basketball, the 1983 Philadelpia 76ers. The engiine was driven by Magic. Without him, the Lakers don't get past any of those teams (and didn't when he was injured).

I've coached, too, and I understand the basics (not the intricacies) of the triangle. I am just repeating what Phil Jackson said when he came over to coach the Lakers because everyone was asking him if Shaq would fit in the triangle. That is why I put the phrase "Center in" in quotes. He said it.

I don't question Michael Jordan's talent. He is the most talented player to ever play the game. Kobe is right there with him and LeBron will be there, too. But the greatest player to play the game was Wilt and the one player who I would start my team with is Magic Johnson. I remain stubborn on this! :)

Edited by Ken #1 Beloved, February 05, 2009 - 08:24 AM.


#35 Real Deal

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Posted February 05, 2009 - 08:37 AM

Without Magic, the Lakers don't win rings? Yeah...and without Hakeem, the Rockets don't get their two-consecutive.

In fact, without Jordan's retirement, Houston doesn't get them. Jordan does, and that gives him eight in a row. I don't see how anyone can debate that...and eight championships in a row is something only Bill Russell accomplished, when there were eight teams in the NBA.

#36 Real Deal

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Posted February 05, 2009 - 08:48 AM

Let me just say this: if you paired Chris Paul and Dwight Howard up, and they won five championships before Paul retired, Chris Paul would go down as the greatest point guard ever. Why? Because Chris Paul would be the overall better player, and he'd have the rings as well.

Fact is, Jordan is the better offensive player, the better defensive player, has more rings, more MVP awards, a better jumper, more of a killer instinct, bigger games/performances, more athletic, stronger, quicker, faster, meaner, more range, a better finisher at the rim, and almost everything else you can find in a basketball game.

Magic is a better passer, just as good of a leader...and that's all she wrote.

There's absolutely no chance I'm taking Magic over Jordan. None. You give Michael Jordan a few guys named Kareem, Worthy, Scott, Cooper, Riley, etc. and that Boston team doesn't win. That Sixers team doesn't win. Detroit loses. Instead of six rings, all in the 90's, Jordan flashes everything he won from the 80's, and prepares for another decade of dominance.

Jordan played with a dislocated/broken index finger on his shooting hand, through the second three-peat. That's not even supposed to be possible...not that finger....but he did it.

I am just in shock that anyone would consider Magic Johnson the best player ever, or the first they would go to if they needed to start a franchise. To me, Magic is #2 or #3 of all-time, but I can't even begin to think that anyone would declare Jordan anything less than the greatest, after watching his entire career.

#37 Tobias Fünke

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Posted February 05, 2009 - 08:57 AM

Good for Kobe.
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#38 Ken #1 Beloved

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Posted February 05, 2009 - 09:02 AM

And I'm in shock that you don't think that Magic could have won with Scottie Pippen. The problem with your argument is that you are overlooking the intangibles that a 6'9" point guard with eyes in the back of his head and a 200 plus basketball IQ brings to the table. It took Phil Jackson to bring the best out of Michael Jordan. It was innate with Magic. I'll say it again. MJ most talented (by a hair over Kobe), Wilt the greatest, start my team with Magic. Michael was a shooting guard. I'm sorry.

Oh, and the Stockton-Malone Jazz, the Barkley Suns, the GP Sonics, not to mention the lousy teams in the East during the Bulls Dynasty, couldn't hold a candle to the '83 Sixers or the Celtics teams during Magic's era.

Edited by Ken #1 Beloved, February 05, 2009 - 09:03 AM.


#39 Real Deal

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Posted February 05, 2009 - 09:16 AM

And I'm in shock that you don't think that Magic could have won with Scottie Pippen. The problem with your argument is that you are overlooking the intangibles that a 6'9" point guard with eyes in the back of his head and a 200 plus basketball IQ brings to the table. It took Phil Jackson to bring the best out of Michael Jordan. It was innate with Magic. I'll say it again. MJ most talented (by a hair over Kobe), Wilt the greatest, start my team with Magic. Michael was a shooting guard. I'm sorry.

Oh, and the Stockton-Malone Jazz, the Barkley Suns, the GP Sonics, not to mention the lousy teams in the East during the Bulls Dynasty, couldn't hold a candle to the '83 Sixers or the Celtics teams during Magic's era.

C - Cartwright
PF - Grant
SF - Pippen
SG - Paxson
PG - Magic

That team doesn't win 67 games, and they surely do not defeat Clyde, Porter and Kersey in the Finals (in fact, they lose to Ewing's Knicks before they get there).

There's a huge difference between those guys, and...

C - Kareem
PF - Green
SF - Worthy
SG - Scott
PG - Magic

All who were all-star players (Scott should've gotten it in 1988), two being a top five or six greatest player of all-time (Magic and Kareem).

But yeah, I've already said what I needed to. You don't jump into some "historic NBA draft" (if it were to ever exist) and choose Magic over Jordan. Forever, Magic will always be second best to Michael...and if Magic were a Boston Celtic his entire career, every single Lakers fan on this Earth would agree.

#40 Ken #1 Beloved

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Posted February 05, 2009 - 09:37 AM

Reasonable minds will differ. The whole premise of my argument is that Magic Johnson made everyone around him better at every level he played. If he could win the NCAA Championship as as Sophomore (back then more players played 4 years) with Greg Kelser as his main sidekick, then he could have won in the NBA with Scottie Pippen as his main sidekick, and it wouldn't have taken him 6 years and Phil Jackson to do it. I'm not questioning the FACT that Michael Jordan was a more talented player, but he didn't have the intangibles that Magic had innately and it took Phil Jackson to bring those out of him. I understand your point about Magic be surrounded with talent, but much like a guy like Ben Roethlisberger, he was able to read defenses as soon as he entered the NBA. Michael, like Kobe, was basically a scoring machine whose talents needed to be refined. Then the great Lakers teams, Celtics teams and Pistons teams went bye-bye and David Stern needed a way to market his product. Enter Philip, Michael, Scottie, a watered down NBA, and the Jordan rules. I'll say it again. Most talented ever. Wilt was the greatest. I'd start my team with Magic!




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